phennies???

[Jimmy]

Hey guys

Today I acquired a strip of tablets, prescribed by the DSP (for someone else) for insomnia; they are known as 'phennies'. I am a little wary as this is the first time I've heard about or seen them. They are blue - a brighter blue than 'blues', slightly shinier but similar in size. My 'friend' described them as slightly stronger than zopiclone but not as powerful, per tablet, as 10mg of diazepam; 2-3 'phennies', he reckoned, would have roughly the same effect as 1 'blue'.

Before I try this new addiction to my collection of sleeping aids, I wondered if anyone could enlighten me on what exactly these phennies are; what class of drug they belong to, their addictive properties and likely affects. They are legit; all blister packed and out of the same bag as his other DSP goodies. I have has plenty of dealings with this individual and he is yet to even try to pull a fast one.

Any advice much appreciated.

Regards
Jimmy

[physeptomaton]

Phenergan love I take them with my MST or OxyNorm. Anyone on this site regularly will known that I am an old school pharm lover and most specifically Diconal (got em on my display picture), so I nearly always mix antihistamines with other opiates
I find cyclizine goes best with morphine and Phenergan/promethazine with oxycodone.

It's the same stuff that used to be in "Phenny" linctus (Phensydyl, available until the mid nineties, codeine, ephedrine and promethazine- how on earth was that ever OTC? )

[physeptomaton]

They are specifically Promethazine hydrochloride 25mg (there are white 10mg available, and also Avomine which are the theoclate salt of the drug). I would not consider them stronger than zopiclone given as I can take several with opioids and not want to sleep for some time, but their anti-anxiety effect above 100mg can be compared to benzodiazepines. They are in the sedating antihistamine (H1 antagonist) category of drug, are unlikely to cause dependence and have relatively few side effects. Dry mouth, cessation of vomiting - they can be used as an antiemetic- and less itchiness from the opioid are to be expected. Very large doses can trigger tardive dyskinesia, or very rarely EPS or neuroleptic malignant syndrome (all more common with typical anti psychotics such as Largactil, Mellaril, Haldol and Stelazine which are less prescribed than in the 1980s and before. Their chemical structure is similar to the old liquid cosh- a phenothiazine compound.)

[Jimmy]

Thanks for your reply

From what has been described, I'm relieved that last night I left them alone. Am I correct in understanding that they are an opiate-based anti-histamine and therefore are unlikely to be effective in combination with subutex/buprenorphine?

I am currently stable on 8-10mg subutex per day alongside the odd 'blue' and 3.75 per zopiclone.

My question: can phennies be safely used  for sleep in combination with subutex?

Cheers
Jimmy

[sapphire]

Oooh, might be jusyt what I'm looking for!!

I need something to help me sleep, and my GP will not prescribe benzo's for more than a week or two, and I can't take Zopi's.

So Phenergan is the actual name of them??

[physeptomaton]

Thanks for your reply

From what has been described, I'm relieved that last night I left them alone. Am I correct in understanding that they are an opiate-based anti-histamine and therefore are unlikely to be effective in combination with subutex/buprenorphine?

I am currently stable on 8-10mg subutex per day alongside the odd 'blue' and 3.75 per zopiclone.

My question: can phennies be safely used  for sleep in combination with subutex?

Cheers
Jimmy

There is no such thing as an "opiate-based antihistamine". People use antihistamines in addition to opiates/opioids for the purposes of potentiation, increased euphoria and decreased side effects. Diconal and Cyclimorph (and formerly Pamergan ampoules, pethidine with phenergan) are so prized because they contain both in the same preparation.

Phennies are a straightforward antihistamine which can be used without discriminating between agonist and antagonist opioids.

[Jimmy]

Brilliant!! 

[Jimmy]

'I nearly always mix antihistamines with other opiates'

I think the word 'other' confused me a bit. I have been prescribed antihistamines for sleep by the DSP before, alongside my subbies, with no probs.

So, are 'phennies' available OTC or prescription only? Are they considered to be a more effective sleeping aid than zopis. Although my zopi script has been reinstated, I will still be expected by my local GP to gradually reduce, only over 6 months or more if necessary, as opposed to the 7 days generously offered by the in house CRI sadist - whoops, did I say sadist? I meant doctor.

To reiterate - I will, then, be able to use my phennies for sleep in conjunction with subutex with no adverse effects due to the combination of meds?

Yes Saph, they go by the name of 'Phernergan'; technical name reliably stated (I assume) by Psyman above - Promethazine Hydrocholide. I only have the blister pack to go by however and Phenergan is on it.

Thanks for the advice Alliance members. Reliable and well informed as ever.

Cheers
Jimmy

[physeptomaton]

OTC at the discretion of the pharmacist. Phenergan was originally restricted in chemists because of irresponsible parents using the elixir form to sedate their young children. It is something of an old fashioned medicine, largely supplanted by the likes of cetirizine and diphenhydramine (Nytol, Benylin Chesty original etc.) I have seen one or two chemists where it is on open display but usually you ask for it by name.

They are not really any more effective than any prescription only sleeping tablet but are gentler and MUCH less habit forming. I do not know of any substantive drug interaction with buprenorphine except for the additive effects of sedation. Suppose that's what you're looking for if you want sleep.

[Jimmy]

Thanks for all the info Physep

This whole zopi/benzo/phennie scenario began about 3 months ago when my 3.75mg per day zopiclone was withdrawn abruptly by the new and empathic (not) in-house CRI doctor. Desperate for sleep (although only a small dose, the sudden withdrawal of a 20 year script hit me hard), I went a-hunting and ran into benzos galore; blues, tamazzies, mogodon - I had a pile. For a week or few I ate them like sweets until coming to my senses, remembering the horrors of benzo withdrawal, and deciding to sort it out.

My local GP reinstated my zopi script; not maintenance but very slow reduction - probably the best I could have hoped for. There was blatant denial in a previous post of mine; I don't take the "odd blue" but purchase my mates script - 26mg per day at the mo but on a 2mg per month reduction; I do the lot. Better than 50mg+ but problematic (for me) nonetheless. However, my initial searching left me with several useful contacts. In addition to presrcibed subutex and zopiclone (again), I have access to 70-200mg blues and 28 3.75mg zopis every fortnight. I can now get up to 30 phennies  a fortnight also.

I am currently using only my subutex and the 26mg diazepam, soon to be 24mg; my goal is to, again, be free of benzo addiction. Last night I had only 20mg diaz but added 3 phennies and slept like a baby. My plan is to continue steadily reducing the benzo, using phennies or zopiclone to aid sleep. I have a stash of blues (the fortnightly collection) which remain untouched and a burgeoning supply of prescribed and illlicit zopiclone; so far, both substances have been easy to resist binge-wise. I'm getting married/going on honymoon in April and the fear of being benzo dependent yet benzoless on the 'big day' and subsequent week is, I believe, the major driving force at the moment and I hope to be 'recovered' (non-addicted) benzo-wise for a while before April 2012.

To be honest, these days I don't particularly enjoy being hammered anyway - at least not more than every evening for a week or two max and even that hardly occurred before the CRI incident; that horrible feeling of again running out of control simply depresses me and illicit addiction worsens, over time, my life considerably. I was happy, and had been for several years, until the CRI doc snatched my zopis away. I'd smoke a bit of puff in the evening  and, although not a deep sleeper, felt satisfied with the 5-8 hours my meds allowed me. It's amazing the havoc a stupid decision (the doctors initially, then my own) can wreak in a short space of time.

I have only been back on the benzos for a few months. Tonight I'm trying 18mg diazepam with 4 phennies, possibly a zopi if need be - although judging by the way they're kicking in as a type this post, the zopi won't be necessary. When my subutex, 5mg diaz and a couple of phennies or/and a zopi feels adequate, ie 'I can sleep', then I will begin to relax a bit. I came off a year (at least) of using the 4mg diazepam per day (reduced to 2mg for a couple of months also) prescribed after a post-rehab relapse with no problems physically or mentally only 4 years ago and would be confident in my ability to do this again. But, obviously, I first must reach this stage.

Physep, would you go for the phennies, zopis or both to help with insomnia brought on by diazepam? I cannot really tell how addicted I am to the blues - I know only that dropping from a month of using 50mg +, straight down to 35mg for a couple of weeks and now to 28mg per day has not induced any ill effect. Being able to reduce at a quicker pace than my 'friend' from whom the diazzies are acquired is another goal and would obviously hasten accumulation of ' the stash' (with the blues, amount-wise, I have a stopping point in mind). Zopis and phennies? I will stash as many as possible - you never know what CRI will beat you with next and I will not be left with insomnia; anxious; a depressed wreck.

Another question: Are phennies tolerance building; will 3 need to become 6 to aceive only the same effect? Is there any particular added risk in using the phennies as opposed to zopicplone for sleep? Could tolerance be avoided by rotating the phennies and zopis; one week on, one off? My primary need is to 'come off' the benzodiazepines - but I also need to sleep.

Any (more) advice/thoughts on my situation most welcome.

Kind regards to all
Jimmy

[Anon33]

What a rush ....Diconal 

[sapphire]

Jimmy

I think what you're doing, decreasing the diazzies, whilst introducing the zopi's or phenergan is the right way to go.
One thing though, if you do want to be 'off' by your wedding then I'd start decreasing more quickly, as the period when you stop benzo's can be horrible, and obviously you want the worst of the withdrawal hangover gone by the wedding?

[Jimmy]

Thanks for the advice Saph

In a previous post you seemed interested in the possibility of being prescribed phennnies for sleep; you are intolerant to zopiclone and cannot get a benzo script for more than a couple of weeks?? If you can get Phenergan prescribed, I would strongly recommend it. For 2 nights now, having reduced to 20 mg diaz, adding 3 phennies has enabled me to get 9 hours sleep (for me, unheard of for years) with no signs of benzo withdrawal so far - possibly to do with my relatively short period of use. Tonight I'll try 17, perhaps 15mg benzo and 3 phennies; see how that goes.

Side effect wise (apart from oversleeping and  almost missing my 9.30am DSP appointment yesterday), a dry mouth first thing, for me, has been all; easily sorted with a morning cuppa followed by brushing teeth.

I'll report back in a couple of days.

Jimmy
Jimmy

[Jimmy]

Oh yeah, no self-denial in above post - only truth.

Cheerz
Jimmy

[physeptomaton]

What a rush ....Diconal 

You're not wrong there.