Anyone else find that amphetamine helps methadone reduction

[MotherSuperior]

A few of us were talking about this subject on another forum. It would seem that some people are able to make a greater reduction in their methadone intake on a good old amphetamine binge, then again, it made some people even more ill. Personally, I find that drinking alcohol makes me feel the withdrawals even more wheras some people claim it helps them deal with it(all to do with GABA, alchohol, benzos, GHB, GLB,Gabapentin- and the other similar med all effect this whereas Amphetamine causes release of dopamine, serotonin, of course adrenlin and some argue that certain methods of administration(IV) cause Endorphines but personally I put the IV  phenomena down to the reward system/rush).
So essentially we have two very different drugs that people claim helps them in withdrawal, interestingly enough, Britlofex aka Lofexidine is given people that are detoxing and it is essentially a beta-blocker- it blocks(partially) the action of adrenalin(short version) which is largely responsible for many symptoms of withdrawal but amphetamine causes a release yet both drugs work on many people.
A fair bit of research has been done on the usefulness of Ketamine which I won't go into the mechanics but will add it is a potent NMDA antagonist(not unlike plain old Magnesium supplements) which not only have their place in Methadone tolerance and interestinly enough Amphetamine tolerance but Ketamine has been found to bind to  type 2 opioid μ receptors in anaesthetic doses which the (opiate withdrawal)research I have read rarely uses those doses.
Their is more in this tale of drug assisted withdrawal but in my experience it is hard enough to get Lofexidine(which in fairness, the BNF does recommend hospital admission as it is a potent non selective(I think) and it makes the patient pretty wobbly and tired. With the current government agenda of 'treating' addiction through reduction/rehab I am not aware of any of this knowledge being applied and patients receiving anything other then a few benzo's(lol, I was going to make my own Barbs for those long nights but I cannot get hold of Cynide which is necessary in the make up and I am fucked if I am going to attempt to make it).
I would be interested if anyone else finds help with these or other chemicals or rather if 'their friends' have;) and any explanations as to why amphetamine helps some people through withdrawal, Why people are not given drugs which I know myself coming cold of 200mg's of IV Methadone(then getting another habit) was the single worse experience of my life, going slow this time.
I have not been on this forum for a while, been busy. I am glad I have some time to drop in and look forward to being part of this amazing group of people and of course having lively but good natured debate with McDermot !!!

[MotherSuperior]

oh, nearly forgot  Ibogaine, Noribogaine and several others. I have read up research, pharmacology, etc of this substance and must say success is limited and it can be slightly dangerous, it's a chance,I've cut down to 10ml a day from 80ml want to get this over with! -there are scored to be settled at the treatment, those patronising docs and SOME drug workers,,,, I also understand that the last ml are the hardest to lose so I would like your views on there. I wonder if NoribogaineThis from wiki:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine#Chronic_pain_management

Ibogaine/Noribogaineaine is metabolized in the human body by cytochrome P450 2D6, and the major metabolite is noribogaine (12-hydroxyibogamine). Noribogaine is most potent as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor and acts as a moderate κ- and weak µ-opioid receptor full agonist and therefore, also has an aspect of an opiate replacement similar to compounds like methadone. It is possible that this action of noribogaine at the kappa opioid receptor may indeed contribute significantly to the psychoactive effects attributed to ibogaine ingestion; salvia divinorum, another plant recognized for its strong hallucinogenic properties, contains the chemical salvinorin-A which is a highly selective kappa opioid agonist. Both ibogaine and noribogaine have a plasma half-life of around two hours in the rat,[42] although the half-life of noribogaine is slightly longer than the parent compound. It is proposed that ibogaine is deposited in fat and metabolized into noribogaine as it is released.[43] Noribogaine shows higher plasma levels than ibogaine and may therefore be detected for longer periods of time than ibogaine. Noribogaine is also more potent than ibogaine in rat drug discrimination assays when tested for the subjective effects of ibogaine.[44] Noribogaine differs from ibogaine in that it contains a hydroxy instead of a methoxy group at the 12 position.
*END*

BTW I believe this drug is illegal in UK, don't know what class,

Also interested in Kratom is anyone 'knows' anyone who has used it.

[froude]

I dont like Amphet personally,but a few of my friends have gone on a bender on it when they have decided not to take Heroin anymore.Ive talked to them and they say if you keep amphet up for a few days to a week you can stop the rattle off Heroin and the Amphet takes over,or you dont feel the rattle.All the best Froude

[sapphire]

I was able to reduce my methadone intake hugely when taking lots of crack. Not sure I'd recommend it though.

[froude]

Funny you should mention that ,when i was flat out and earning good money(doing pubs,all the machines)me and my mate were flat out on the crack for about 4-5 days,we only had one dig in all that time and our heroin habits were big,smoking the crack we sort of forgot about the gear and didnt rattle,same as you though dont recommend it to anyone,all the best Froude

[sapphire]

Funny you should mention that ,when i was flat out and earning good money(doing pubs,all the machines)me and my mate were flat out on the crack for about 4-5 days,we only had one dig in all that time and our heroin habits were big,smoking the crack we sort of forgot about the gear and didnt rattle,same as you though dont recommend it to anyone,all the best Froude

It weird isn't it.when I was mad on the crack, everything else took a back seat and I didn't seem to feel opiate withdrawal as acutely as I would normally.

[usandthem]

Amphetamine?? Mmmm. What goes up must come down. That would be some drop..Booom!! A come down off whizz and a major methadone rattle. I hope I never have to see someone suffer that madness. It may work in the short term. I wonder what my key would think about it??  They would probably be all for it and encourage you if it got you down off that 'damn meth'!! and got them their sweet government loot. I will just stick to my crawler. 1ml every 6 weeks if they dont like it I will co-use with grade A smack and then they will have no choice than to up my script. Ouch!!!  John

[Anon33]

In my experience amphet helps a bit if your rattling....til it wears off then you need a bag more than ever.....yet I know a handful of people who have got off gear using phet, so there maybe something in it

Murphy's law hehe

[mcdermott]

A few of us were talking about this subject on another forum. It would seem that some people are able to make a greater reduction in their methadone intake on a good old amphetamine binge, then again, it made some people even more ill.

Yeah, some people are able to make great reductions in their methadone intake by praying to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, and asking him to cast the methadone demons out of their body.

For my money, both suggestions are about as useful as each other.

Personally, I find that drinking alcohol makes me feel the withdrawals even more wheras some people claim it helps them deal with it

Yeah, placebo (or possibly nocebo) effect going on here. Alcohol makes your liver work overtime to metabolize the alcohol as quickly as possible. If you're physically dependent on opioids, drinking alcohol will make you metabolize anything you have in your system faster than you otherwise would. Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

(all to do with GABA, alchohol, benzos, GHB, GLB,Gabapentin- and the other similar med all effect this whereas Amphetamine causes release of dopamine, serotonin, of course adrenlin and some argue that certain methods of administration(IV) cause Endorphines but personally I put the IV  phenomena down to the reward system/rush).

Have you been reading this, by any chance?

So essentially we have two very different drugs that people claim helps them in withdrawal, interestingly enough, Britlofex aka Lofexidine is given people that are detoxing and it is essentially a beta-blocker- it blocks(partially) the action of adrenalin(short version) which is largely responsible for many symptoms of withdrawal but amphetamine causes a release yet both drugs work on many people.

The evidence for the helpfulness of lofexidine is very well documented -- which is why it's recommended in the NICE guidelines for symptomatic relief. It works in much the same way as clonedine, which they used to use previously, but whixh is much riskier because of the problems with the reduction in blood pressure.

A fair bit of research has been done on the usefulness of Ketamine which I won't go into the mechanics but will add it is a potent NMDA antagonist(not unlike plain old Magnesium supplements) which not only have their place in Methadone tolerance and interestinly enough Amphetamine tolerance but Ketamine has been found to bind to  type 2 opioid μ receptors in anaesthetic doses which the (opiate withdrawal)research I have read rarely uses those doses.

Again, Ketamine is not a helpful drug for withdrawal from opioids. Helpful if you want to contact aliens from the fourth dimension, possibly. Or if you want to spend a couple of years talking to dolphins. Less helpful if you're seeking to become drug free.

Seriously, there's a mountain of scientific work been conducted on the best way to detoxify from opioids. Why anyone would want to ignore that work and go dabbling with a bunch of other, non-recommended drugs is completely mysterious to me.

Well, not *completely* mysterious. We're drug addicts. Drug addicts gonna wanna get high. But that impulse isn't actually conducive to the desire to detoxify.

Their is more in this tale of drug assisted withdrawal but in my experience it is hard enough to get Lofexidine(which in fairness, the BNF does recommend hospital admission as it is a potent non selective(I think) and it makes the patient pretty wobbly and tired. With the current government agenda of 'treating' addiction through reduction/rehab I am not aware of any of this knowledge being applied and patients receiving anything other then a few benzo's(lol, I was going to make my own Barbs for those long nights but I cannot get hold of Cynide which is necessary in the make up and I am fucked if I am going to attempt to make it).
I would be interested if anyone else finds help with these or other chemicals or rather if 'their friends' have;) and any explanations as to why amphetamine helps some people through withdrawal, Why people are not given drugs which I know myself coming cold of 200mg's of IV Methadone(then getting another habit) was the single worse experience of my life, going slow this time.
I have not been on this forum for a while, been busy. I am glad I have some time to drop in and look forward to being part of this amazing group of people and of course having lively but good natured debate with McDermot !!!

[froude]

UMMMMMMMMMMMM who mentioned Ketamine,cor did i like that drug during the 90's,its the only drug that has made the dashboard of a Cortina look like the flight deck of the Boeing 747 lol.I was sniffing that for years,bloody mad stuff,takes me back ha ha,All the best Froude 

[derek d j]

 Drug addicts gonna wanna get high. But that impulse isn't actually conducive to the desire to detoxify.

And the converse is also true. If I hear one more anti-drug addict avow they're 'high on life' since their detoxification, I may scream. As far as I can discern, their parroting this meaningless phrase indicates only that, previously, they weren't, which is their problem, not mine.  

Ring the freedom bell! I've no idea why but this seemingly equally meaningless phrase has been reappearing in my mind, to various tunes, all day long. I can only attribute it to the heat.

[MotherSuperior]

Yeah, some people are able to make great reductions in their methadone intake by praying to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, and asking him to cast the methadone demons out of their body.

For my money, both suggestions are about as useful as each other.

I'm not sure what your saying here, a strong religous conviction can make people capable of amazing(and amzingly crazy) things so amp. is good>? Many people on another forum say it helps and looking at this thread it has helped people, From personal experience it got me Bupe..

Yeah, placebo (or possibly nocebo) effect going on here. Alcohol makes your liver work overtime to metabolize the alcohol as quickly as possible. If you're physically dependent on opioids, drinking alcohol will make you metabolize anything you have in your system faster than you otherwise would. Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

I see, That's interesting as alchohol actually lowers metabolism but the rate at which the liver works is increased? Interesting. Either way I do steal well clear of it when I have been rattling, which has not been for a long long long time. I am a good boy and take prescribed meds and almost nothing else. Alchohol in quantity makes anyone feeel like shit but I see people who drink it like people drink tea or coffee in the morning and cary on doing so until they can score. I tried it once and OMG I felt 10X worse,

Have you been reading this, by any chance?

No, Tell me, is it any good?

The evidence for the helpfulness of lofexidine is very well documented -- which is why it's recommended in the NICE guidelines for symptomatic relief. It works in much the same way as clonedine, which they used to use previously, but whixh is much riskier because of the problems with the reduction in blood pressure.

Maybe because it USED to cost over £100 a course, thats why it's not seen much. One of the docs at the new shiny Slough drugs service(all gypsys, GP's with special interest.... their ok. Anyway, she told me Clonidine was riskier but considering she thought GHB was an amphetamine(it's not even an amine....) I don't really take her word on matters of pharmacology. They do good though, mostly.

Again, Ketamine is not a helpful drug for withdrawal from opioids. Helpful if you want to contact aliens from the fourth dimension, possibly. Or if you want to spend a couple of years talking to dolphins. Less helpful if you're seeking to become drug free.

I'm sorry but most NOT ALL research I have seen has said it has helped patients either significantly lower or stop opiates/opiods, admittedly the subjects were 'pain' patients who had issues coming off their morphine.... whatever(not methadone as far as I've seen. Would you like me to post the research?

Seriously, there's a mountain of scientific work been conducted on the best way to detoxify from opioids. Why anyone would want to ignore that work and go dabbling with a bunch of other, non-recommended drugs is completely mysterious to me.

Yes, this is part of ongoing research, the work is obviously far from done as far as I know the best way to get off opiates relatively painlessly is being under deep anasthesia, but that cannot be done for too long as it causes a lot of other problems. People rave about Ibogaine others say it did'nt do shit for them. Thats humans for you. In the research the patients administered sub cutaneous ketamine did not express any overbearing discomfort. What do you think is the best way? Personally, not what some directive says but you, personally?

Well, not *completely* mysterious. We're drug addicts. Drug addicts gonna wanna get high. But that impulse isn't actually conducive to the desire to detoxify.

No, but having gone through CT a long time back while I was on 200mg IV methadone, Rohypnols, IV Diazepam, well lets just say the benzos that got sent to me were very much appreciated. For what it's worth I don't like ketamine, personally.

[froude]

Yeah mcdermott your right ketamine is good for talking to Aliens, ive had many a chat with Aliens,smurfs,wombles and even Kylie was in the room when i was taking Ketamine,i also sat down once and then watched myself sit down aswell lol.As K has a very short life i think i would rather put pins in my eyes to take the pain away from clucking than use it for detox,if anyone is thinking of using K to do a cluck with make sure you have a couple of tons of the stuff,as it dont last long.All the best Froude

[AllOut]

UMMMMMMMMMMMM who mentioned Ketamine,cor did i like that drug during the 90's,its the only drug that has made the dashboard of a Cortina look like the flight deck of the Boeing 747 lol.I was sniffing that for years,bloody mad stuff,takes me back ha ha,All the best Froude 

I think im the only person on the planet who doesnt like the K hole found it scary

[AllOut]

I like Kratom its really nice but not used it to detox with so I dunno. I used short acting opiates to come off meth succesfully only had one really bad day(came off at 5mg) and that was that but coming off of 200mg IV CT Hmm i think head transplant might have been useful. That sounds utterly terrifying!!!!