New,worried,dissapointed, would like support, my taper has started!

[AllOut]

Hello Everone, I am new here. I have been reading a vast amount of "stuff" on here and it seems like a great place. I dunno if this should go here but anyhoo....
I got myself a hefty Codeine addiction (700mg's a day) was advised to go to my local clinic and was put on 50mg of Methadone. I had know idea what I was getting myself in to by that I mean the WD from it. Makes my Codeine WD's look like tea party. I would love to know why didnt they taper me on Codeine (I will ask them at some point but theres no use crying over spilt milk  ) I missed picking up from the chemist and had only 2 days of WD and OMFG talk about scaring the b'jesus out of me, it was awful, I have children, husband, work and college to maintain so I have to "soldier on" anyway I decided then I MUST get off this PDQ. I have dropped to 25mg myself told my key to which he said DONT do that without me helping you and we will do it s l o w l y.....What my concern is that I will feel like shit and just prolong it, I have a minimal tolerence for suffering lol he said drop 2mg every 2 weeks but im thinking 5mg evry 2 weeks am i being stupid? my initial reaction to the WD I went through made me wanna "bolt" if that makes sense. I want out and Im scared shitless. The other thing is while i was stable on 50 my chronic debilitating insomnia went away perfectly like a dream for the first time in god knows how many years, that part of it has been amazing and has made for one happy camper BUT im gonna have to let that go and that is really upsetting. ok sooo. what can i expect? and can I go back to Codeine for the last biit of my taper and then taper off that. im not gonna go back to using i just want off the ride. ANY help advice support would be really appreciated from you lovely people..

[simon]

They wouldn't prescribe codeine because people just tend to buy more and it seldom works. If you rush down off the methadone then you'll feel awful, very slow reductions over a long period you'll feel less withdrawals. If you rush it then you'll relapse probably.
If you go back on codeine for the last bit then you may end up hooked on it again.
It sounds like you need to be going back up on the methadone before reducing.

[froude]

I was going to say ask your Service Provider to put your meth up and when your comfortable to start reducing.When me and the misses first started our meth scripts we were waking up at 4 in the morning having withdraws,mentioned it to our D.S.P and our meth scripts went up,most service providers will listen if you tell them what you are going through,all the best Froude.

[sapphire]

Hi AllOut,

If you do want to to come the methadone then really your keyworker and Simon areright, the best way to do it is slowly.

In research that has been done, people reducing slowly over time are far more likely to be successful then those tearing through it.

If you started at 50ml/day and reduced by 2mg a fortnight then you shouldn't really physically notice many symptoms at all. I would think it would be less traumatic on your body and psyche to just stay on the methadone and reduce all the way down to 0 ml/day rather than get to 10/5 ml and swap back to the codeine. I doubt that your DSP would sanction that anyway.

Do you want to be abstinent? I only ask as if you've not dealt with "why" you were using in the first place, you may end up relapsing.

From the situation you have described, if it was me, I would go back to the 50ml/day, get stable on that for a few weeks, then start the 2 mg/fortnight reduction.

If you don't want to come off the methadone though, don't feel you've "got" to. It could be that at the moment it's the best thing for you, iyswim?

[usandthem]

Hi ALLOUT.

Firstly, Welcome to The Alliance. I too am a Newbie. I think most here think im a ranting loon. They wouldn't be far wrong there. Anyway seems like a good enough and likeable bunch on here. Very friendly. Anyway on to tapering off methadone juice or liquid.

I have done this tapering before without any help from the dsp and I found it worked really well. Before I tell you I want you to ask for a 2nd opinion of one of the nurses here. Either Simon or Jim but might be better to go to your dsp →doctor and ask for his 2nd opinion -say it worked for a long term addict who was on a 7 year methadone maintenance program.  I only failed mentally but that was after 3 years clean and without any pain pangs from taking my last droplet. Here is what I did and there was no physical pain attatched to this detox.

Always remember that it is always important while on 50ml or any dose lower. You should only drop no more than 5% of your current dose a month or every 4 weeks. For example: (60mls - then drop 3mls to = 57mls every 4 weeks) : (50mls - then drop between 2 and 3mls or 2.5mls every 4 weeks) ( 40mls  - then drop 2mls to =38mls every 4 weeks) : (20mls - then drop to 1ml to = 19mls every 4 weeks) As you taper down please try and access a pharmacist style measuring jar made from glass as it helps make accurate measuring as opposed to plastic measuring caps are not always accurate. Also get a oral syringe up to 5ml or 10ml to draw out left over methadone so you are tapering down correctly. Always put the glass measure jar on a flat surface. (10mls down stick to 1ml tapering but extend your tapering time from 4 weeks up to 6 weeks) as you get to very low 4ml and below then taper down 1ml every 12 weeks or 0.5ml every 6 weeks until you are not feeling the metabolism catch up or any withdrawal pangs. Methadone has a half life so it can take up to between 3 and 4 days to catch up with your metabolism so tapering at a more (slower) rate as you descend to low doses is vital. Mentally, the hard work starts when your methadone has left your body totally, but physically you should be ok but ask the doctor for some sub-lingual Temgesics 2mg for a few months if you get PAWS pangs or stretching syndrome as some users call it. You put the temelgesics under your toungue. Ask doctor for details he shouldnt have any problem prescribing to you at post taper. I am speaking from physical and mental experience and not evidence based research, as we know we have different metabolisms but any tapering should be at a slow rate. Hope that may help. John 

[AllOut]

Thanks people for responding I should have said I have been on the 50 for about 2 months before I started coming down and yes I felt stable and not used any codeine at all its been very pleasant sleeping properly BUT I do want off I dont like feeling "trapped" and when I got down to 25 over a few weeks that has also been ok but I'm aware that it will get hairy as Im getting lower down and thats what im scared of. John youdont sound like a ranting loon at all ( i should know I know LOADS of ranting loons ) you sound  considerate and V helpful thanks, I can see thatIm gonna have to exert some patience on this one ( Im very impatient) I dont feel like i got to come off at all my key is backing me what ever i want to do so thats good. And yeah I doubt anyone is gonna wanna give me codeine but I will say I wont be abusing again, i learnt my lesson, considering you have all said a resounding "slow" I will prob do that. Um those Temgesics?? are they addicting will i WD off them?

[Flip]

If you take Temgesic while you have a current methadone addiction you will probably be thrown into precipitated withdrawal which is really not somewhere you want to be. Temgesic is just Bupe admitedly in a lower dose than suboxone or subutex but it  will have the same effect on someone with a tolerance to any normal opiate. Avoid at all costs!

Flip

[sapphire]

AllOut - Temgesic (which is also highly addictive) is the same as Subutex, just at lower doses, if you take Subutex or Suboxone whilst on methadone it will cause the most horrible precipitated withdrawal, so DON'T DO IT!!!

When you are down to 20/30ml/day of methadone you could in theory transfer to Subutex/Suboxone and then continue to taper from them. To me though, it seems silly to swap from one addictive drug to another when you are reducing on the first anyway.

I really think you will have a far easier time of it to just stay on the methadone and reduce slowly all the way to 1ml/day, I know it might seem like it'll take ages but surely better to take ages thean to fail and have to start again anyway?

Hey Flip, how the devil are you!

[usandthem]

Wait...I did say post taper..which means taking the odd one well after your taper is completed and you are feeling pangs. I did not say take temgesic as a past-time or recreationally. The hold these little tablets have on you is minor compared to post methadone withdrawal pangs. All Out its always great to hear different opinions of other users. I am in no way telling you what you should do. Only what worked well for me. Of course any or most substitute opiates are addictive if taken like sweets. If you are glorified in making yourself clean then you can use one every now and then when you feel at your lowest ebb. Do NOT EVER mix any buenorphine including Temgesic with Methadone. I never said to in my original post I said post taper when the last droplet of methadone as left your body and a few days after when your metabolism has caught up with your last ever droplet of methadone. I also said get a second opinion. This has worked well for me after seven years of methadone use. No physical pangs and I am not dead yet. Although I did say that this is my own experience and not an evidence based reduction. I also said we all have different metabolisms and our bodies react differently. But I never said mix the temgesic/buenorph with methadone at all. Peace John. AllOut do what you feel is best for YOU.