Behind the abstinence facade...

[mcdermott]

Our own Sara McGrail blogs on the wider agenda of one of the leading lights in the 'back to basics' abstinence movement.

http://homepage.mac.com/smcg1967/Sara%20McGrail/page14/page14.html

[willow]

what bothers me is that do the majority of these people that argue the case for abstinence v maintenance bother to ask people who are stuck in the nightmare of addiction whether it be  heroin or methadone or other substances exactly what it is they need or want? the whole think seem rather paternalistic to me and the right wingers seem to treat us like we cannot be trusted and we should have things done to us not with us .

[saramcgrail]

I think that's spot on Willow - its not about saying rehab's shit or methadone's shit or accupunctures shit, its about saying different things work for different people at different times.

I think the trouble is as soon as people start adopting these absolutist positions, what they in effect say is drug users are shit - and so we must make the decisions for them.

To be honest, there are times as a worker when you need to take more of an active role in helping people make choices. I was always taught that the aim of that is to get people through sticky patches and to get control back to them as soon as possible. When the state starts to mandate treatment or when people begin to suggest that the state should mandate treatment, I really start to worry. Its what used to happen in mental health all the time and in women's health to an extent. Its not helpful in the long run to anyone.

S

[mcdermott]

Acupuncture *is* shit though.

[Jimi]

Acupuncture *is* shit though.

Acupuncture is subjective. If your a mono or poly drug user you are not going to be very sensitive.
I once tried electrified auricular acupuncture in Nairobi and concluded it was an utter waste of time.
I was smoking 7 grams of brown heroin a day, so its hardly surprising I could not notice any benefit.
Tried it 10 years latter on a very low dose of subutex and still failed to notice any effects whatsoever.
Tried it 3 years after I gave up substances and I noticed positive effects. Mind you I go to a mate who
runs a private clinic in Ladbrook grove London who's a bit of acupuncture Guru. He learnt & practiced
in India & China. So I suppose its down to appropriate timing and having some realistic expectations.
Consumption of alcohol, stimulants & opioids will make it harder to perceive benefits from acupuncture.

Just had to get that of my chest...

jimi

[mcdermott]

Yeah, I know lots of people feel that they've benefited from Acupuncture. Similarly, lots of people believe that their addiction was cured when they were Washed in the Blood of the Lamb. We don't provided Jesus on the NHS though.

We also know that placebo works for a lot of people, but if you start swapping out placebo for methadone, people are going to be pretty pissed off. In fact, the only way to really figure out whether a treatment is any good or not is through randomized controlled trials. When acupuncture or electro-acupuncture has been tested in this way, it has invariably been shown to have no effect. There's one study where half of the people were given *real* acupuncture, and half were pricked in the wrong places, and the people who got the 'sham' acupuncture actually did better than the people who got the real acupuncture.

From which we can conclude it's basically placebo. Sugar tablets for hippies. Don't take my word for it though. This one looks at smoking and acupuncture, but studies of acupuncture as a treatment for pain and acupuncture as a treatment for drug dependence show exactly the same features:

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band72/b72-5.html

[will-c]

I like the post count under your name today Mcd,

I have tried acupuncture loads of times and got nothing, then I hear swear by it. The last time I had acupuncture it was full body and too be honest the only reason I kept going back was the acupuncturist was a right sort.

[Jimi]

We don't provided Jesus on the NHS though.


Blasphemy eh ?  I don't give a damn because I'm a Buddhist & all that Judaeo/christian malarkey for gullible fool's.
Interesting gambit trying to argue the old evidence based chestnut of randomized controlled trials for acupuncture.
Where's the funding & how slacks the fiscal governance ? Really not convinced you have fully grasped the concept
of acupuncture and traditional chinese medicines. The social cultural ethnicity aspect's are complex. If your born &
breed in an east Asian country where its been practiced for centuries and the level of practitioner competence is high
I guess it's all bit different. You believe and are in tune, your more aware of your chakras and acupuncture philosophy.
Your not treatment naive and have realistic expectations of the aliments conditions and diseases it realistic to used it for.
Trying to cope with addiction issues is just not really fair. Acupuncture has a place but you need to be realistic.
So I am going to have to ask a large research grant and will just have to attempt prove you all wrong. (embezzlement)

If you want to sink a battleship dont bash at its hull with a 16 oz claw hammer, whack it with an air to surface missile!!!

Jimi javascript:void(0);

[Mark Gilman]

I can just about stomach the Acupuncturists but when the Buddhists ride into town - I'm outa here.

[penny]

I would rather digest some Buddhist-inflected Mindfulness (Kabat-Zinn, etc) than the cold steel pin...

[mcdermott]

Blasphemy eh ? 

Not at all. There are any number of people who owe their recovery to our Lord and Saviour, Jebus Christ. If personal testimony is sufficient evidence to justify funding a treatment, that should surely mean that we start replacing our methadone clinics with missionaries and our rehabs with The Rapture.

To be fair, I don't have any problem with people believing any old nonsense they damn well please. Just don't expect me to fund it as part of NHS treatment unless its testable and can demonstrate clinical efficacy.

[will-c]

One of the first books I read about some one having a habit and kicking it was the Sword and the Switchblade and the follow up Run baby Run. I had just gone through a massive prison cold turkey and couldnt really relate my misery to their hell. Each to their own when it comes to what they want to believe, I just dont buy the direct or quasi christian route.

I do know people who swear by the old acupuncture process, however most including myself have been left thinking what was that all about.

Rather crudely, I prefer a kiss to a prick but kissing never took away the pain and usually led to further anguish...

[mcdermott]

One of the first books I read about some one having a habit and kicking it was the Sword and the Switchblade and the follow up Run baby Run. I had just gone through a massive prison cold turkey and couldnt really relate my misery to their hell.

It's the Cross and the Switchblade, but -- in case you hadn't guessed -- I was being sarcastic. I know I shouldn't, but I think of complementary therapies as just another religion. Unseeable, untouchable, unmeasurable. Works for some people for some things, but then so does placebo.

[will-c]

dooh, I thought I had typed the cross and switch blade, shows my head thinks one thing, while fingers type another and my eyes see what I think...


I heard a new word yesterday, which was a 'nacebo', the opposite to placebo, when they give the drug when they say there not, something like that...